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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:05 am Reply with quote

I am trying to determine which one of my three IB birds (one male and two females) are carrying a recessive pied/white gene. None of them have any white markings on them at all. For the last two years, they have produced some chicks with white flight feathers. No pieds. It was determined here that one (or does it have to be two?) must carry a recessive pied/white gene.

FYI...I have a purple silver male and a blue silver female.

So what I THINK I should do to help determine which IB has the pied gene is to put one blue hen with my purple silver male and the blue silver hen with my IB male. Does this sound right? If I put my IB male with both a blue hen and a silver hen then it would be hard to determine...correct?

Knowing the birds I have, do you have advice as to how I should pair up these birds to help determine which blue it is? No matter what I do, one male has to have two hens because of the facilities I have available. So with that said, I cannot figure out if switching one hen would prove anything...

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Jennifer
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:45 pm Reply with quote

If your chicks were in fact "pure pied" expressing some white.. people say that pied splits do not show any white, which does mean that there has to be two parents carrying a recessive. Going with that, this would mean your male is 'automatically' a pied split. So in a way, he doesn't really *need* to be tested, unless you want to get solid proof either way.

Testing pied/white splits is much easiest done with whites. Clearest results this way too.. but still, a pied will work too.. just need to hatch more chicks to be sure.

IB split pied male with silver pied hen will throw "obvious pieds" so yes this will work in proving he has it.. (if he happens to be split white, then this mating will produce pieds and whites too)
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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:34 pm Reply with quote

Hi Keven,

That is what I was wondering, it has to be both parents to show any white. Now see, I never thought of the fact that he HAS to be split...DUH!!! Wow that makes the process of elimination MUCH easier!

So just to clarify that I understand, for my babies to have had obvious white flight feathers, my male for sure and at least one hen carry the gene.

So if I put one blue hen with my silver male if she is split I will get definite pieds. Now this is what I am not 100% sure on...if she is not split, I will get ALL chicks that show no white at all, not even flights. They will be technically called blue split pied.

I also want to clarify that with the purple male and blue female I will get all blue males and all purple females.

Is this correct? Thanks for your patience.

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Jennifer
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DMFarms
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:58 pm Reply with quote

Jennifer
If you didn't hatch any pied chicks and some had white flight feather ony one bird is carring a pied gene if you would hatch some pieds than the male and one of the hen would be split to pied. To produce pieds one parent has to carry a pied or a white gene and the other parent a pied gene. I would put the IB male with with the silver pied hen if you throw pied chicks the male is split pied and the two hen put with the purple silver pied male if you produce pieds than one of the hens are split pied. You are correct all male will be blue split purple and all hen will be purple color.
Doug
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:18 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
f you didn't hatch any pied chicks and some had white flight feather ony one bird is carring a pied gene


Doug, it was to my understanding that it is common for split pieds not to show any white and that homozygous pieds do(and look very similar to split whites)? If that's the case then the male is probable split pied plus one of the hens too with the white flighted chicks being homozygous pieds?
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:27 pm Reply with quote

JenniferB wrote:


So just to clarify that I understand, for my babies to have had obvious white flight feathers, my male for sure and at least one hen carry the gene.


Ok I am awaiting answer from Doug or others.. for now, assuming split pieds don't show white and homozygous pieds do.. then the above is correct. Male and at least one of the hens are split pied.

Quote:

So if I put one blue hen with my silver male if she is split I will get definite pieds. Now this is what I am not 100% sure on...if she is not split, I will get ALL chicks that show no white at all, not even flights. They will be technically called blue split pied.


If she is not split, then half of the chicks will show white, half not. Split whites normally show some white.. split pieds supposedy don't show white(like your blue breeders).

If she IS split pied, her offspring will be pied, white flighted(in her case, could be split white OR homozygous pied) and chicks with no white at all- probably split pied.

Quote:

I also want to clarify that with the purple male and blue female I will get all blue males and all purple females.

Is this correct? Thanks for your patience.


Yep correctamundo. Smile Also all males will be split purple.[/quote]
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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:09 pm Reply with quote

Well, I currently have one blue hen with my purple silver male. I am taking advice and I want both in there for a true test. We will know for sure because the silver hen will be with my blue male! Time will tell.

The weirdest thing happened when I put both blue hens in. Ice immediately started fanning, then one hen backed him into the fence, still fanning he bowed his head to the ground, beak in the dirt and allowed her to peck at his face! All around his eye and pulling on his feathers on his head and neck. He would stop fanning and just stand there with his head bowed to the ground while she pecked. So I removed her and left him with the other one who wasn't doing it. The second hen then did it. So I kept a close eye on them. She would do it for a bit then stop. Nothing would happen for a while. Then standing on a perch she would jump up and he immediately bowed his neck and head and she would do it again! It seemed to happen less and less and by the end of the day he was fanning for her with no pecking.

Have you ever seen this??!! I am a worry wart mother and I am afraid she will hurt him! Is this a courting ritual or something? Is he just being a woosie? They are still together and I just hope she doesn't do something drastic through the night. I can't believe he would let her hurt him!

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Jennifer
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DMFarms
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:15 pm Reply with quote

Kevin
You are right a bird that is split pied only will show no white if the male was split pied and one of the hens also they would produce pied baby not just some with white flight and this breeding should have produce some whites that why only one parent is split pied. The chicks with the white flights are split white and may or may not be split pied. When breeding splits not all offspring will be split to pied it don't matter if one or both parent are split pied some will carry a pied gene and some want.
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:18 pm Reply with quote

JenniferB wrote:
Well, I currently have one blue hen with my purple silver male. I am taking advice and I want both in there for a true test. We will know for sure because the silver hen will be with my blue male! Time will tell.

The weirdest thing happened when I put both blue hens in. Ice immediately started fanning, then one hen backed him into the fence, still fanning he bowed his head to the ground, beak in the dirt and allowed her to peck at his face! All around his eye and pulling on his feathers on his head and neck. He would stop fanning and just stand there with his head bowed to the ground while she pecked. So I removed her and left him with the other one who wasn't doing it. The second hen then did it. So I kept a close eye on them. She would do it for a bit then stop. Nothing would happen for a while. Then standing on a perch she would jump up and he immediately bowed his neck and head and she would do it again! It seemed to happen less and less and by the end of the day he was fanning for her with no pecking.

Have you ever seen this??!! I am a worry wart mother and I am afraid she will hurt him! Is this a courting ritual or something? Is he just being a woosie? They are still together and I just hope she doesn't do something drastic through the night. I can't believe he would let her hurt him!



Without seeing them myself, it sounds like he was very interested and trying his best to court those hens- head bowing is one way they court, it's not just tail fanning. An interested male lets the female come up and peck at his head/face while he is bowing.. this is also how a female shows HER interest in him. If she kept her head close to his and sort of "nibbled/tugged".. this is mutual interest. Looks painful to us but to them it's "hot stuff".

Now if the hen were standing tall and making irritated clucky noises, if you have seen two peahens fight, they make this clucking noise to tell each other they are really irritated at each other, this same noise combined with a stabbing motion with a full retracting of her head.. this is more aggressive and challenging him. Some males will respond by "showing her who's the boss here" with a retaliation, other males are more like lovers, and "patiently" try to convince the hen he is a great stud by continuing to bow/court until her aggression stops.

BTW sometimes when a male bows, a large lump will appear right behind his head. This is normal, although it looks pretty odd and is just a tuft of feathers.

He's dealing with them in the "lover style". This is not wussy, just not a brutish lout way of handling it is all. It's a problem if a hen actually gives a kick and he runs away.. it is okay if a hen kicks and the male kicks back.... that is him telling her not to do that again.
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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:40 pm Reply with quote

WOW Kevin! That is exactly what is happening! My boy is a lover!! He is hot stuff!! must take after his mother...lol jk

She was actually tugging on his feathers and doing all you said. She was tugging really hard too. Looked painful. The other blue hen did it too. I hope it stops, cause it makes me nervous. Oh and the lump was there too, just like after they call and have their neck up straight but their head down with beak to the neck and do the shake!

I am so relieved to hear this! I have never heard of, much less seen this before. It is quite interesting actually.

There was no clucking at all. I sure know this sound for they do it to me on occasion. I just talk to them and tell them "oh knock it off, its just me" lol.

Now, should I add the second hen after a few days to give the first one time to stop this? I hate to have two hens doing this at the same time.

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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:28 pm Reply with quote

Just wanted to thank you both for your advice.

Kevin, all is fine with my love birds. Sometimes she stays real close to him when he is fanning, like right up against his body and he puts his head down and squats his legs down while still fanning. She pecks at him occasionally, but all is much more subdued. She also follows him around close too...like they walk side by side a lot. I think I will give them a few more days and then add the other hen.

It is so interesting to watch what they are doing now that I know she won't hurt him! lol

Nature is amazing!

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Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:25 pm Reply with quote

Haha I like lover birds too. Wink

I just love to sit back and watch all the little behaviors they do. When I was a kid, wanted to be a biologist with a specialty in animal behavior.. it's why I notice all the little things like that and figure out what exactly is going on.

Your hen is crazy in love with him! Doesn't happen terribly often, some hens do find a male they really, really like and act just like that.. her eggs should be real fertile this spring. Wink

Congrats on the perfect match and such a gentleman!
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MinxFox
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:54 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Without seeing them myself, it sounds like he was very interested and trying his best to court those hens- head bowing is one way they court, it's not just tail fanning. An interested male lets the female come up and peck at his head/face while he is bowing.. this is also how a female shows HER interest in him. If she kept her head close to his and sort of "nibbled/tugged".. this is mutual interest. Looks painful to us but to them it's "hot stuff".



Hey, that is what my new pieds were doing! The male and female were both pecking at eachother bowed. We thought it was a bonding thing. Also our yearlings are doing the same thing. Hope the yearlings keep that bond. Very Happy
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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:00 pm Reply with quote

Today I noticed that when he "tried to do the deed" she would jump up and kick at him?

Also, what is funny, is my other blue hen that I also put in with him in the beginning was doing the same thing! Wonder if she is in love too? We will find out for I am going to add her to the mix this weekend!

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JenniferB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:49 pm Reply with quote

Well the second blue hen has been in with Ice for over two weeks now. The first hen doesn't seem to care about him anymore. I have been watching closely and it doesn't seem like Ice even cares about the first hen anymore. Doesn't try to mate with her. He is now focusing on the second hen. The severe pecking at the face and pulling on the neck feathers has pretty much stopped, but when he tries to do the deed they do this dance where she follows his body real close, then at the moment he tries to get her she kicks him. His poor tail feathers are all broken at the ends from them pushing him up against the fence and things. He still bows to them. I took a video to show you what goes on. This is the only thing I have ever seen, never any acceptance or breeding accomplished. They are both laying eggs now about every two to three days.

Will these girls ever accept his advances? If not, I cannot waste a whole breeding season on infertile eggs. Take a look and see what you think. My 4 year old daughter is singing and talking in the background, so if you don't feel like hearing that, please turn down the volume...lol. It isn't the best quality, but you get the idea. The poor guy tries so hard. I feel bad. lol


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